My Platt & Tweedale Ancestors
Hello, I'm Jack Bayes. My Mum's paternal Grandparents were Robert Platt and Ellen Tweedale. Mum's Platt Ancestors, originally hailed from the Saddleworth area in the old West Riding of Yorkshire, England.
We can trace Ellen's Tweedale ancestors back into the Chadwick, Hopwood and Assheton families, long established Lancashire gentry in the Middle Ages!
The pages on this site are best read on a Tablet, Laptop or Desktop. They don't work well on a mobile. I'm afraid I don't have the skills or the nouse to adapt or structure the content to work on a mobile, so for that, I apologise.
John Barrett put this useful annotated 1st Ed. OS map on his Ancestry site. It shows part of South Eastern Lancashire, England and highlighted, are some of the places in this story.
Most of the Tweedale ancestry you will see below, is based on information supplied to me, many years ago, by a lady called Joan Bardick. Despite living in Australia, she compiled an amazing amount of data, which she was happy to share. My thanks go out to her.
The story starts off with Arthur Assheton. He was born c.1510 at Rochdale, Lancashire, we don't know his wife, but he fathered many children. He died in 1591.
The oldest was Isabelle, born in 1530 at Clegg Hall. Clegg Hall is shown on the right hand side of the map, (above) and on the old picture, (right). This picture shows the later 17thC building on the same site, built by Theophilius Assheton. This was restored extensively, but sympathetically, from a ruinous state, between 2006 and 2010.
See this link.
Isabelle married another member of the local gentry, Roger Chadwick b.c.1531, of Chadwick Hall, (the last building with that name was demolished in the 19thC, see right).
The Chadwicks of Chadwick
We can go back another 5 generations from Roger Chadwick to his ancestor Nicholas de Chadwick. Nicholas de Chadwick, was married to Matilda, daughter of Thomas Pares. Nicholas died in the 23rd year of the reign of Henry VI, (1445-6).
We now follow the line of descendants:
John de Chadwick, (d.c.1445).
Henry Chadwick of Chadwick, (d.c.1482), and his wife Margaret.
Oliver Chadwick of Chadwick, (living in 1489).
Oliver Chadwick of Chadwick, gent., (d.1542).
His son was Roger Chadwick, who married Isabelle Assheton.
To return to Roger and Isabelle, their son, Oliver Chadwick (1550-1621) married Jane Haslam. Their son, John Chadwick was born in c.1570.
John married Margaret in 1589. By 1622, when John wrote his will, they were living at a house called Ellenrod, (again, see the map above). Their middle child Isabelle, (b.1593) married James Hopwood, (1595-1655) in Ashton under Lyne in 1618 and their youngest child was Isabelle Hopwood, born at Middleton in 1641.
Isabelle Hopwood married Abraham Tweedale at St Chad's Church, Rochdale on 14 Sep 1658.
Now, we can look at the Tweedale family.
The earliest we know is Abraham's grandfather, George Tweedale, (1560-1611), who married Margaret Andrew, (1564-1611), in December 1583 at All Hallows Church, Almondbury, in West Yorkshire, pictured right, (image c/o Google Earth).
Their son, John Tweedale was born in 1586 in Oldham, Lancashire, 20 miles WSW of Almondbury. John Tweedale married Jane (b.1590) and their son was Abraham, mentioned above, who was born in Almondbury in 1630.
So we return to Abraham and Isabelle. They had four children and the youngest son was another Abraham, born in Shaw, Lancashire in 1667. By 1717, when Abraham Sr. died, they were living at Woodhouselaw, probably Woodhouse Lane, Norden, a few miles West of Rochdale.
But, back to the younger Abraham who married Elizabeth Earnshaw in 1700 but she died in 1708, then he married Sarah about 1709.
They had a son Jacob Tweedale in 1715. When Abraham died in 1735, they were living at Blagden, an isolated farmstead on Rooley Moor, NNW of Rochdale. (Before the 18thC, Rooley Moor was known as Shore Moor).
In Abraham Tweedale's Will of 1735, he left £149 8s. 6d., this was the value of animals, looms, goods, bills, bonds and cash, etc. and the remainder of a lease in land worth £40. (£150 in 1735 would equate to about £20,000 now).
In 1739, at St Chad's Church, Rochdale, Jacob married Elizabeth Dearden (1715-1765). In 1741, they had a son, Abraham, they were living at Woodhouse Lane, Norden and Jacob was a weaver. In 1760 when Jacob Jr. was born and baptised, they were living at The Hollows, where Jacob Sr. died in 1782.
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Intriguingly, at the top end of Woodhouse Lane in Norden, on the West side past Ellis Fold, I found a house (or houses) marked Tweedale. This is shown on the 1850 OS Map and subsequent maps until the 1960's. The buildings have since been demolished, the site is at grid ref. SD860152.
A few notes about The Hollows.
From around the mid 1700's until, perhaps the 1830's, an extended Tweedale family appeared to live at the farmstead called Hollows. This was at Shawclough, a mile north of the centre of Rochdale, off Shawclough Road.
The house(s) and other buildings are no longer in existence, though the woodland immediately to the south-east of the site is called Hollows Wood.
The Ordnance Survey Map of 1929, below right, shows Hollows Farm at Grid Ref SD886145. It is still there on the 1956 map, but not on the 1960 map.
A Bowling Green was then made on the site, a few yards to the East of the where the centre of the farm complex was, but this has been abandoned and become overgrown.
The area is said to be blighted by Asbestos from the now empty manufacturing plant next door and has been described as Rochdale's Chernobyl.
For more information, follow this link.
But to return to Jacob Tweedale Jr., who was born in 1760 at The Hollows. He married Betty Dobson at St Mary's Wardleworth in 1788. (He died in 1828). Wardleworth is a SE suburb of Rochdale.
A son, Abraham was born in 1788 at The Hollows and another son, William, was born there in 1791. On William's baptism record, his Father is described as a Weaver.
Abraham married Rachel Greenhaugh (1791-1865) at St. Chad's Church, Rochdale on 7 Nov 1811. We know of 10 children. My ancestor was Jacob Tweedale, b. 5 May 1819 at The Hollows.
Around 1821 they were at Wardleworth and certainly by 1839 they were at Bury, Lancs.. On the 1841 Census, the family are living at Brookshaw, at Bury. Abraham's occupation is Woollen Weaving. Jacob, down as 20, (typical of the 1841 Census - rounding down of ages), but actually 22, is a Cotton Dresser.
According to the 1851 Census, Abraham and Rachel are at 18 Compulsion Street, Bury. (!?) Abraham is still a Hand Weaver. Either the road name has changed or Compulsion Street has gone. I was fascinated by this street name and tried to find it's location, without success, but it appears to have been close to what was then Moss Field Mills. That's gone too, it was a hundred yards West of the M66 on the B6222.
In 1861, still a weaver, he is at 21 Chesham New Road, in the North of Bury. He died in 1853 and Rachel in 1855.
Back to Jacob, who married Betty Wolstenholm (b.1821) at St. Mary, Prestwich on 26 Jun 1842. Jacob was a spinner and both lived at Whitefields, just south of Bury. They had a son, William, in 1843, then in 1844, Betty died.
Jacob married again, on 17 Dec 1845, to Sarah Wild (1822-1902) at the Presbytarian Chapel, Bury. Sarah and Jacob went on to have 10 children, one of which was my great grandmother, Ellen, who was born in Wash Lane, Bury on 11 Apr 1850. (The Wild name was used as a middle given name for Harry, one of Ellen's children).
They were still in Bury according to the 1851 Census, at Cobden Street. Jacob was a 'Spinner of Cotton.' Sometime around 1855-6 they moved to Waterfoot on the banks of the River Irwell in Rossendale.
The 1861 Census shows them living at Waterfoot in the Warth Building. Jacob is a Cotton Overlooker. Ellen is 11 and combines work in a cotton mill with going to school.
In 1871, they are at the Victoria Buildings, Waterfoot. Jacob is a Mule Overlooker (cotton), (as in Crompton's Spinning Mule). Ellen is a Rover.
(Roving is the name for the loosely assembled group of fibres before it is twisted to make a thread. A rover operates the machine which takes the mat of aligned threads coming from the carding machine and splits it into these groups of fibres).
On 7 Sep 1872, at Newchurch Unitarian Chapel, Ellen married Robert Platt (1850-1912).
We now need to look at my Platt ancestry:
My Mum's Platt ancestors hailed from Saddleworth, an area about 10 miles ENE of Manchester and on the extreme Western edge of the peak district.
The earliest Platt I can confidently record is James Platt, who was born at Woodbrook, Saddleworth on 2 Dec 1756. Woodbrook is now on the extreme Eastern edge of the Oldham conurbation. On his Baptism record of 5 Dec 1756, at St Chad's Saddleworth, (shown right), it shows that he was the son of Isaac Platt (a Clothier) and Mary of Woodbrook.
He married Margaret (Peggy) Travis on 16 Sep 1679 also at St Chad's Saddleworth, which is at Church Lane, Uppermill, Oldham, OS Grid Ref. SE007064.
They had a son Benjamin. He was born on 4 Sep 1796 at Crompton, Lancashire and was baptised there on 2 Oct 1796.
The entry records state: "Benjamin son of James Platt of Whitehill Woolin [sic] weaver by his wife Peggy."
Benjamin married Ann Standring at St. Chads Church, Rochdale in 1820. His eldest child (of nine), John Platt, my ancestor, was born in 1824. He was baptised on 20 Sep 1824 at Friarmere. St. Thomas Church, Friarmere, also known as the Heights Chapel, is a, now redundant, Anglican Church standing on a hillside overlooking the village of Delph.
James died on 11 Apr 1809 at Snipcroft, Crompton and was buried at Saddleworth on 13 April. Crompton is now part of Shaw and located halfway between Oldham and, to the North, Rochdale.
I've annotated a 1st Edition OS map, (left), showing some of the places in the Platt story.
It includes Whitehill, which is just West of Old Tame, which is itself about a mile SSW of Denshaw.
Buildings at Lower and Higher White Hill still existed on the 1980's OS maps, (Grid Ref. SD963097, 355m/1170ft above sea level), but have now been demolished.
We next get a glimpse of the family in the 1841 Census. They are living at Heath Hill, Old Tame, (see old map above). Benjamin is a Labourer and John a Woollen Printer. By 1851, they are at Heathy Hill, the same place, I suppose, now called Hearthy Hill. Benjamin is now a Farmer of 12 acres.
Meanwhile, John Platt married Betty Buckley at the parish church, Rochdale, (St. Chads presumably), on 1 Jun 1846. John is still a Woollen printer, both signed the register with a mark.
A son, Robert, was born 24 Aug 1850 at Hanson House, which is just East of Grains and about a half mile south of Old Tame, (Grid Ref SD968087). John Platt describes himself as a Woollen Printer. The hamlet of Old Tame is on the map (above), at the road junction just to the North East of Hearth Hill Farm.
The 1851 Census finds John, Betty and three children, still at Hanson House, John is now a Farmer of 8 acres. The youngest of the three children around then was Robert, aged just 7 months. This is my great grandfather.
On 2 Mar 1856, the family turned up at the Church at Friarmere, pictured right, for the baptism of the four children they had by this time, Mary Jane, Samuel, Robert and Thomas. John is back to being a Printer.
The 1861 Census finds the family at Whibsey, a line of cottages, still there, at right angles to the road, going NNE out of Denshaw, about a hundred yards from the centre. John is a Block Printer and his son Robert is a Piecer at a Cotton Mill.
John must have worked at Denshaw Vale Print Works, which used Calico, a cotton based cloth. This was situated at OS Grid Ref. SD974102 and see old map above. Some parts of the mill complex survive.
Robert was a Piecer*, so must have been at Denshaw Mill, which worked wool, and was a little East of Denshaw Vale at OS Grid Ref. SD977103. This mill disappeared from the maps not long after this time.
* A piecer, usually a child, had to twist together broken threads on a loom.
This could be quite a risky business.
In 1863, a son, John, was born in Newchurch in Rossendale. So they must have moved c.1862, at the height of the Cotton Famine. (This was during the period 1861 to 1865, a consequence of previous overproduction and then of blockades of the raw cotton imports during the American Civil War).
Newchurch was more of a wool town, as opposed to cotton, so I guess they hoped that work was there. John was a printer in 1869 when his son, Samuel, got married.
The 1871 Census shows Robert Platt was a Woollen Tenterer, he and his family at Victoria Street, close to Waterfoot Church; nearby in Victoria buildings lived Ellen Tweedale.
My great-grandparents, Robert Platt and Ellen Tweedale married on 7 Sep 1872 at Bethlehem Unitarian Chapel, Newchurch. They set up home in a house called Larch View on Miller Barn in Waterfoot. Children start arriving; Sarah Ellen (1873), Mary Jane (1875), Robert (1876), my Grandfather John (1879) and Harry Wild (1880).
The 1881 Census finds them still at Miller Barn, Robert is now a Woollen Block Printer. By the time Thomas was born in 1882, they had moved to Mirfield in Yorkshire. Samuel (1884) and Rachel Ann (1886) were also born in Mirfield. In 1888, they were at Bank Street, Mirfield.
A quick note about place names - In Victorian times, especially after the coming of the railway between 1848 and 1852, the whole conurbation was becoming known at Waterfoot, which included the old township of Newchurch to the North West. Waterfoot stretched South to the River Irwell and the Rawtenstall to Bacup railway. Confusingly, both names tend to be used for the same place.
In Germany (from c.1888)
The next child to come along, (Benjamin in 1889) was born in Rheydt, near Munchen-Gladbach in Germany. Martha, the youngest child we know of, is born there in 1891.
They appeared to have stayed for a time at Restaurantahien Beckers, Mulfort, (a suburb of Munchen-Gladbach, where they were sent a post card on 25 Dec 1897).
In 1901, we know their address was 19 Duvenstrasse. (This address was taken from the Attestation papers of their son, Harry Wild Platt. So he must have returned to the UK to serve in the Army in the Boer War).
Also, the 2nd Edition (1893) of 'A History of the Forest of Rossendale' by Thomas Newbigging, has a list of subscribers including Robert Platt, with the address of Duven Strasse, Nulfort [sic], Germany.
On 31 Dec 1907 a post card was sent to them at Marchestrasse and on 14 May 1908, their son Harry Wild Platt, (who was working in Lanzo, Italy), sent a post card to them at Markt. Str. Mulfort. Another post card sent to their son, Sam, was addressed to No 55 Markt Strasse.
I am indebted to Jake Platt for providing me with this super Platt Family photo which dates from about 1896 and so must have been taken in Germany.
This is my idea of who's who: Left to Right:
Samuel, Thomas, Mary Jane, (unknown child - probably unrelated), Robert Sr., Robert Jr., Sarah Ellen, Martha, Ellen, Harry Wild, Rachael Ann, John and Benjamin.
Robert Platt appears to have bought a house at 12 Thornfield Road, Waterfoot, before 1906, ready to return home to, after his time as a Manager in Germany. Thomas married from there in 1906, Harry, John and Rachel were living there in April 1911.
Robert Platt died in Waterfoot on 24 August 1912. Ellen lived on until 1933. They are buried in a family grave at the graveyard of the Bethlehem Unitarian Chapel, Newchurch.
The chapel has closed and been converted to residential use, but the graveyard, with the Platt's memorial, is still there, most of it under the current surface level.
When we visited the graveyard in August 2019, the site was almost a sea of ragwort.
Most of the headstones have been laid flat and some memorials, like the Platt one, semi buried, as mentioned above.
A quick look at the lives of the Platt children:
Sarah Ellen: (1873-1962) - In Rheydt, c.1897, she married Richard Edward Crawshaw, (1871-1940) a Clogger from Newchurch. They lived their married life in the Morecambe/Lancaster area of Lancashire. A picture of her, late in her life, is shown (right).
Mary Jane: (1875-1941) married Herbert Stuart (1869-1948) in Rheydt in c.1892 and lived their lives in Crayford, Kent. (In 1901, Herbert was a silk printer and in 1911, a block printer, (silk, calico, etc.).
Robert: (1876-1909) died in Wels, Austria, where I suppose he was working away.
JOHN, my Grandad, (usually known as Jack), (1879-1941) - more to tell (below).
Harry Wild: (1880-1922) took part in the Boer War in the 2nd Btn. Lancashire Fusiliers No. 9368. He joined up on 8 Feb 1901 and was in South Africa from 16 March 1901 until 12 May 1902, until he was discharged on 14 May 1902.
He then worked as a Textile Machine Fitter, taking many sea voyages abroad, working in Italy, Portugal, Brazil, (see picture taken there - right), and India. He died in Anand, Gujerat, India on 29 Apr 1922.
Thomas: (1882-?) married Ellen Harwood (1883-?) in Waterfoot 27 Jan 1906, when he lived at 12 Thornfield Road, Waterfoot. They then lived in Cowpe, South of Waterfoot. When his daughter, Gladys, (b. 6 Jul 1906), was baptised in 1906, he was a Block Printer. In 1911, he was still in Cowpe, but working as a Sawyer. I'm not sure, at present, what or where he was after that date. Gladys married John Thomas Whitehead in Dewsbury, Yorks. in 1930 and they were living at 73 Alice Street, Accrington, Lancs. in 1939.
Samuel: (1884-1988) was still working in Odenkirchen, near Rheydt, as a Dye Works Manager, when war broke out in 1914.
He was subsequently interned in a civilian Prisoner of War camp, at Barrack No.5, Ruhleben, Berlin. Conditions there were very poor, he must have had a tough time. There is a photo of him in the Camp's Choir, (right). For more information on Ruhleben, see these websites about Ruhleben - #1 & #2.
He was married to Isobel Elinor, (a.k.a. Stella), (c.1895-1982). They were living at 112 Manchester Road, Bury in 1939, when he was the Works Manager of a Felt Mill. It looks like they retired to the Sidmouth, Devon area where they died.
Rachel Ann: known as Kitty, (1886-1957) married Albert Wood (1876-1946) in Rossendale in 1913.
Benjamin: (1889-1951) was a Policeman in Waterfoot on 4 Nov 1914, when he attested for war service.
He was in the Royal Horse Guards before being transferred to the Machine Gun Corps in May 1918.
He married Margaret Elizabeth Clegg in the Bethlehem Unitarian Chapel, Newchurch on 9 Sep 1918.
In the Second World War, he was an Interrogator. Having been born and grown up in Germany, he would have been fluent in colloquial German. Ben and Margaret were living with son, Stanley (b.1925) at 471 Walmersley Road, Bury in 1939.
Martha: known as Mattie, (1891-?) married Paul Friedrich Sasse on 16 Sep 1913 in Nordrhein-Westfalen. They lived in Stolberg in 1918, which was the address given by Abs. Leutnant Sasse when he was captured by Allied forces. From the Volksbund website, I found out that Paul Sasse had died on 14 Jun 1940 as a Leutnant. He was buried in the Berlin-Neukölln Cemetery at Lillienthalstrasse.
They had two sons, Richard and Paul, who both died on the Eastern Front in World War 2.
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There is the strange, and quite sad, situation that in 1918, Sam Platt was a PoW in Germany, whilst his Brother in Law, Paul Sasse, was a PoW in England.
In 1901, my Grandfather, John Platt, (like me - known as Jack), then 22, was boarding at 6 Howard Street, Castleton, Rochdale, working as an Iron Fitter. As noted above, he was at 12 Thornfield Road, Waterfoot in 1911, working as a Sewing Machine Mechanic.
He married Bertha Stansfield, (1885-1960), on 4 Aug 1913 at the Weslyan Chapel in Newchurch. I guess the photo, (right), of my maternal grandparents, is a wedding or engagement portrait.
They set up home at No.2 Bridleway House, the building's still there, in present-day Newbigging Avenue, Waterfoot. It's an old building made into three dwellings. On 10 Aug 1918, a daughter, my Mum, Joan Platt was born there. She was to be their only child.
Jack Platt was a chronic asthmatic. It may have been because of this that, by 1921, they had moved from Waterfoot to Lytham, with it's clean seaside air, on the Fylde coast. Later, they went on to South Shore, Blackpool. The photo, right, shows him in Blackpool around 1940.
Jack Platt died, due to his asthma, on 22 Oct 1941. Bertha, shown here in around 1950, died as the result of a stroke, at Wesham Hospital on 14 Mar 1960. _______________________________
My Grandad and Grandma Platt are buried together in Lytham Cemetery, Lancashire, Grave No.30, Non-Conformist section. (My Mum's ashes joined them in 1990).
We now go on to talk about Joan Platt, my Mum. As stated above, she was born in Waterfoot, but grew up in her parents Boarding House in South Shore, Blackpool. Clever enough to pass for the local Grammar School, Palatine; but they couldn't afford for her to go there. She was blessed with a lovely voice and 'trod the boards' in the Variety Theatre Circuit with the stage name of 'Joan Amber'.
During World War 2, many RAF crew were trained in Blackpool and billeted in the many boarding houses. This is how my Mother met and married Charles Frost, born in Clerkenwell, London on 20 Jan 1922 and pictured, (right).
He was posted to North Africa and was a Tail Gunner in a Vickers Wellington aircraft. On a sea rescue flight on 23 Feb 1942, they were strafed by an Italian aircraft. They thought they had got away with it until, after they landed, they found Charlie Frost dead in his tail turret.
He was buried in the El Alemain War Cemetery in Egypt, Grave No. XXXI. D. 26. He was just 20 years old. He never got to see his little son, born 4 months before.
After the war, Mum was still 'treading the boards' and was singing in Variety. She stayed at my Grandmother's, at that time, a theatrical boarding house, as she must have been appearing at the Theatre Royal in Worcester, (the Theatre closed in 1955 and was demolished in 1962).
She met Leonard Whatmore Bayes there, a former member of the RAF, a son of the 'Landlady and Proprietor'. Strangely enough, on his last fatal sortie, Charles Frost took off from an airfield at El Alemein that my Dad had helped to set up.
My Mum and Dad were married on 31 Jan 1948 in Blackpool, (wedding photo, right). I came along a year later, then my sister.
"If you don't know where you are going, know where you come from."
Krio proverb.
Jack Bayes here!
I hope you find this web site of interest. I am always open to suggestions as to how to improve these pages. You may have information to add, or to clarify that given on the site. Also, I hate to admit it, there may well be errors! Whatever the case, please let me know.
Please note my new E Mail address, which is:
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(I've added spaces in between each letter of the E Mail address as a form of "address munging", (if you'll pardon the expression).